AYESHA RASCOE, HOST:
It's a holiday weekend but not a relaxing one for thousands of workers who now find their livelihoods at the center of the political impasse that is the federal shutdown. NPR's Stephen Fowler is following that story and joins us now to put it into context. Stephen, thanks for being with us.
STEPHEN FOWLER, BYLINE: Good morning.
RASCOE: So let's start with the layoff notices that started going out just as the weekend started. How many notices are we talking about? Who's getting them? What do we know?
FOWLER: There is a lot that we don't actually know still because these reductions in force are happening during a government shutdown, where a lot of people getting told that they will be laid off and losing their jobs are also furloughed right now and aren't supposed to be working, checking their emails, things like that.
Now, the White House said ahead of time, the scope of these cuts would be, quote, "substantial." But in court documents late Friday, the number for now is around 4,200 or so people across at least seven agencies. That includes things like IT positions for the Internal Revenue Service, the entire remaining staff of the Community Development Financial Institutions Fund, more than 100 people at the country's top mental health agency, and offices within the already decimated Department of Education. It's important to remember, there are laws and rules that govern how these layoffs are conducted, including a minimum 60 days notice of their end date, which for now is early December.
RASCOE: I mean, and speaking of rules, is the administration on solid legal ground? Or is this another unprecedented move?
FOWLER: So there's a reason there are court documents about the layoffs. A group of unions sued ahead of the shutdown, arguing the Trump administration's threats of mass firings if the government funding lapse wasn't solved was illegal. And also they say, during the shutdown when workers are divided into groups like those who do work without pay and those whose work isn't deemed essential and have to be furloughed, the lawsuit argues preparing notices to fire people isn't work that's allowed during a shutdown either.
Government spending experts I've spoken with say that the temporary nature of a government shutdown should have no bearing on long-term decisions about the size and scope of the government. And speaking of spending cuts, President Trump had this to say during a cabinet meeting last week.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: And we'll be making cuts that will be permanent. And we're only going to cut Democrat programs. I hate to tell you. I guess that makes sense, but we're only cutting Democrat programs.
RASCOE: Didn't the Department of Government Efficiency already comb through federal agencies and lay people off? Isn't that what DOGE was all about?
FOWLER: Yeah, that adds another layer to this shutdown impasse and why the needle hasn't moved as much with Democrats and Republicans in Congress. I mean, back in February, as part of the DOGE initiative, the White House asked agencies to create plans to slash their workforce. It was a multiphase effort that included proposed more changes coming when the new fiscal year started October 1. One expert I spoke with, Jessica Riedl with the center-right Manhattan Institute, said that reason is maybe, maybe one reason to take some of these drastic proposed changes with a grain of salt.
JESSICA RIEDL: There's a lot of people in the government right now who were pretty sure their jobs were going to be eliminated six months ago but are still employed by the federal government. And there's hundreds of billions of dollars in spending savings that were promised earlier in the year that never occurred.
FOWLER: Let me put it another way. Trump administration officials have said that Democrats caused the government shutdown. The government shutdown means making hard choices about spending and staffing, and the White House feels like it's forced to make these tough decisions. At the same time, this is an extension of that Department of Government Efficiency push to slash the federal government's size and scope. That has been underway for several months. And before the shutdown even, we've reported on agencies hiring people back because they can't do basic functions or carry out the president's agenda items.
RASCOE: What about pay for active-duty members of the military? That is a - could be a huge issue. They have a payday on Wednesday. What's the latest there?
FOWLER: Well, over the weekend, President Trump said on his social media site, he's, quote, "identified funds" to ensure the military gets paid. A White House official not authorized to speak publicly says the Defense Department will use research and development funding, but it's not clear if that's legal. What is clear - it's part of the administration's push to take over appropriations duties given to Congress.
RASCOE: That's NPR's Stephen Fowler. Stephen, thank you so much.
FOWLER: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
