AILSA CHANG, HOST:
From NPR News, this is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Ailsa Chang in Culver City, California.
JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
And I'm Juana Summers in Washington, where at least five lawmakers say they've recently been contacted by federal prosecutors for questioning. The reason is that they teamed up to make a social media video back in November, encouraging members of the military to refuse illegal orders. The lawmakers are all Democrats. They all formerly served in the military or in the intelligence community, and one of them is Michigan Senator Elissa Slotkin. She, in fact, organized this video and joins us now. Welcome back to the program.
ELISSA SLOTKIN: Thanks for having me.
SUMMERS: Senator, you said you were contacted by U.S. Attorney Jeanine Pirro's office, and a spokesperson for her office declined to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation to NPR. What was the nature of their contact?
SLOTKIN: Well, they reached out through the Senate legal channels to say that they wanted to talk to us. And this follows on a very similar request from the FBI, the counterterrorism bureau, back at the end of 2025, you know, in December. And, you know, these are political appointees at both places who are answering the call from the president, who said, you know, over a dozen times we should be investigated, arrested and hanged for a 90-second video we filmed in November.
SUMMERS: And just to clarify here, did you learn from that call or any other contact if they're investigating a crime?
SLOTKIN: You know, their - they didn't say in their written communication and in the lawyer conversation. It's just - it's very hard to figure out what they're doing. So I don't know. I don't know. And, you know, I think just the mere fact that they've initiated this - that you have to get a lawyer, you have to come up with a strategy, you have to have these conversations - is the point, right? The intimidation is the point, both physical intimidation, certainly the threats - after the president tweeted about us, the threats went through the roof - but then the legal intimidation. It's just papering you over with this process, I think, is meant to get you to shut up.
SUMMERS: You've made the point here and elsewhere that the intimidation is the point and that it's not going to work, though - and this may be obvious - whether or not there are ever charges or legal proceedings. Federal investigations, they can be expensive and time consuming, personally stressful as well. Are you concerned about what this might mean for you?
SLOTKIN: Well, look, I mean, my job is to fight for the people of Michigan. We haven't stopped doing that. I was on the floor of the Senate talking about the 10-year anniversary of Flint, Michigan, and the water crisis there today.
SUMMERS: Yeah.
SLOTKIN: Like, I'm not going to let this distract me. But, you know, between threats to my family and having to start paying a lawyer, it's definitely a different phase in my career. But I will tell you, if they can do this to a U.S. senator, what do you think they can do to just an average independent citizen?
SUMMERS: And I'd like to put that question to you, though. You have resources. You are a U.S. senator with visibility. What would this kind of action mean if it were taken against the average citizen?
SLOTKIN: Well, I think we're already seeing it, right? He's employing these kinds of physical and legal threats against universities, corporations, individuals, politicians. And many of them are just, I think, making the bad decision and saying, you know, if I just shut up and sit on my hands, it'll keep me safe. And he's successfully cowed a bunch of these institutions. And I think certainly I know individuals who are just like, hey, man, I'm just going to keep my head down. And so, because I have the ability to fight back, because I have the ability to do, you know, in conversations like this, I'm going to be on offense as opposed to doing what they want me to do, which is just being quiet.
SUMMERS: Senator, I do have to ask you, though, you - as well as your fellow Democratic lawmakers who participated in that video - have said that you will not be intimidated. They have said that they will not be intimidated. But I have to ask, given the current temperature, the heated temperature of political violence and rhetoric in this country, do you worry that that stance could backfire?
SLOTKIN: I mean, if you do nothing, bad things also happen. So I don't understand the alternative to pushing back. And, look, I've got a lot of peers, elected Democrats, who are really just sort of like, hey, let's just wait this whole Trump administration out. Let's just be quiet, keep our heads down. Let the country boomerang on Donald Trump. And I just can't tell you how much I disagree with that approach. And so, look, it's already produced bomb threats at my house and swatting of my parents in the middle of the night. It's already produced these things. So I don't understand the strategy of just saying, you know, I'm going to duck and cover until this goes away. It's already bad. Better to fight and put it on your terms rather than just play constant defense with these guys.
SUMMERS: Bigger picture, the Trump administration is empowering the executive branch in a number of unprecedented ways. This last week also brought news that federal prosecutors are investigating Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell over cost overruns at a federal building project. Just earlier today, President Trump said he was considering invoking the Insurrection Act to send troops to Minnesota. Do you see a throughline with those events and what's happening to you and your fellow members of Congress who participated in that video?
SLOTKIN: Yeah. I mean, I think the president's reaction to our video is part and parcel of why we made the video in the first place, right? He called for a bunch of lawmakers to be hanged because of a 90-second public video. And so he has made clear, whether it's in his rhetoric or what he's actually done on the ground, that he doesn't care about law. He doesn't care about legal process, due process, freedom of speech. If you are against him, you're the enemy, and he's going to weaponize the government against you.
As for the Insurrection Act, I mean, I just want to make sure that people understand how serious that is. That means that by declaring an insurrection on the ground in, let's say, Minneapolis, he can tell active-duty military troops - not Guard but active-duty, like the 82nd Airborne - to come into the city and act as law enforcement, right? Not to just protect a federal building or help law enforcement, but act as law enforcement. We know that they're not trained for that. That's - the military, I've worked alongside them my whole life. They're wonderful at going after foreign threats. But American citizens? I mean, that is a whole different thing, and I think it's just we have to take his comments seriously 'cause Trump has been talking about and floating the Insurrection Act over and over in 2025 and now, most recently, yesterday.
SUMMERS: Senator, I mean, your defiance on this issue is clear, but you also do have power as a member of the Senate. What steps are you taking in Congress to limit executive power?
SLOTKIN: Yeah, I mean, this is obviously harder because the power - the party in power does not want to limit the president. I think, honestly, after a year in the Senate, you know, you can write a strongly worded letter. You can, you know, try and propose a bill, but at the end of the day, the bully pulpit and trying to create some momentum around going on offense is the strongest option. There's options in the courts - right? - for the judicial branch, but I'm in the legislative branch. If I can't legislate, and my peers across the aisle are not interested in standing up for their branch of government, then I've got to use things like this - I mean, an opportunity to be in front of lots of people to say, like, we are not the America that we know we can be. This is not who we are. And until we kind of hold hands and decide that we're going to push back collectively, this guy's going to think he can do anything he wants. So bully pulpit at a very minimum.
SUMMERS: Short answer here. We've got about 30 seconds left. Do you see any evidence at all in your dealings with, your conversations with, your Republican colleagues that this moment might be different, that they might do anything that would limit presidential power?
SLOTKIN: You know, it's interesting. I think we have been seeing - I wouldn't describe them as big moves - but pricks in the veil, like pin pricks in the veil around the president. You know, the Jerome Powell stuff was not liked by a number of my peers, and some of them were brave enough to say that publicly. And I think there's just - you know, we had a bunch of Republicans in the House vote for an extension on health care. President didn't want that. Pin pricks, you know? But that's how it starts. It's got to start somewhere.
SUMMERS: Senator Elissa Slotkin, Democrat from Michigan, thank you so much.
SLOTKIN: Thank you.
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