SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
I know it's a little early in the day, but think about having an old friend for dinner tonight, with fava beans...
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ANTHONY HOPKINS: (As Hannibal Lecter) And a nice Chianti (slurping).
SIMON: Ah, appetizing, isn't it? Brian Raftery's new book, "Hannibal Lecter: A Life," tells the story of how a reprehensible murderer created by a talented novelist has become a franchise, including novels, films and television shows. Brian Raftery joins us from our studios in New York. Thanks so much for being with us.
BRIAN RAFTERY: Thanks for having me.
SIMON: Let me begin by asking you about the cover art. Looks like...
RAFTERY: (Laughter).
SIMON: ...A slice of strawberry pie with meringue. But that's not fruit, is it?
RAFTERY: (Laughter) No. I mean, I wish I could take credit for the cover 'cause everyone loves it. But, yes, it is a confectionary meat pie to remind us exactly of who we're dealing with and what his particular tastes and dietary restrictions are.
SIMON: Dietary restrictions, how civilized.
RAFTERY: (Laughter).
SIMON: Listen, in a sense, we know where Hannibal "the Cannibal" Lecter comes from. It's the imagination of a novelist - Thomas Harris. How important were books to him as a child, growing up the son of a Mississippi farmer?
RAFTERY: I think books were kind of Tom Harris' escape during childhood. You know, he's a very reclusive figure. He's only given three interviews in the last 50 years or so. You get the sense that he was very bright from a very early age and very well read.
SIMON: And how did he learn so much about grisly murders?
RAFTERY: Well, you know, he grew up in the South during a time when stories of murder would be kind of passed around. You know, people would go out on their porches and tell stories. In fact, there had been an accused cannibal murderer not too far from where he grew up a couple decades earlier. And apparently, this guy, who was accused of killing two people and taking the flesh of one of the people and walking around with it and possibly sampling it - this was a story that was kind of handed around for generations around Mississippi and other parts of the South.
I think from a very early age he had an awareness of and an interest in crime. And in fact, when he started newspaper reporting in Texas, he was kind of on a couple of different crime beats. He was very interested in true crime and how crimes are solved and how criminals behave at a time when people's awareness of serial killers and mass murders were becoming unfortunately more prevalent.
SIMON: He learned a lot from the FBI, I gather.
RAFTERY: He did. I mean, he managed to learn a lot of details about the traces that criminals leave behind, how FBI agents think about their pursuit of killers. You know, the first two Hannibal Lecter novels, which are "Red Dragon" and "The Silence Of The Lambs," they're kind of the same story, which is that there is a madman on the loose and only Hannibal Lecter, who is in prison, can help the FBI track this person down. And what's so fascinating when you go back and reread these novels is that Hannibal Lecter is barely even a supporting character.
SIMON: First glimpse we get on screen of Hannibal Lecter, of course, is in the movie "Manhunter" in 1986, which was the film made from "Red Dragon." Brian Cox, the great Scottish actor, was the first person to play Hannibal Lecter on screen.
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BRIAN COX: (As Hannibal Lecter) You are very tan, Will. Your hands are rough. They don't look like cop's hands anymore. And that shaving lotion was something a child would select. It has a ship on the bottle, doesn't it?
SIMON: (Laughter) Cue Old Spice commercial.
RAFTERY: Yes (laughter).
SIMON: How was this Hannibal different than the one we got to know through Anthony Hopkins?
RAFTERY: Well, what I love about Brian Cox's performance, his take on Lecter, it's almost kind of cat-like. Brian Cox's Hannibal Lecter is kind of - enjoys pawing people around. He's a little catty in terms of his line delivery and his sense of humor. His intellect comes through. And I think also in "Manhunter," a little bit of Hannibal Lecter's snobbishness, which you heard in that Old Spice line - I mean, that's one of the things I love about Hannibal Lecter, is that he's really kind of a snoot when it comes to food, when it comes to people's aftershave or choice of cologne or perfume. He's always commenting on it. And I love that Brian Cox's Hannibal Lecter is clearly very opinionated (laughter).
SIMON: Well, let's hear now from, of course, "Silence Of The Lambs" - 1991. Clarice Starling, played by Jodie Foster, is trying to get Hannibal Lecter, now played by Anthony Hopkins - trying to get his help to catch a serial killer known as Buffalo Bill.
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HOPKINS: (As Hannibal Lecter) What I want is a view. I want a window where I can see a tree or even water. I want to be in a federal institution far away from Dr. Chilton.
JODIE FOSTER: (As Clarice Starling) What did you mean by fledgling killer? Are you saying that he's killed again?
HOPKINS: (As Hannibal Lecter) I'm offering you a psychological profile of Buffalo Bill based on the case evidence. I'll help you catch him, Clarice.
FOSTER: (As Clarice Starling) You know who he is, don't you? Tell me who decapitated your patient, Doctor.
HOPKINS: (As Hannibal Lecter) All good things to those who wait.
SIMON: Oh.
RAFTERY: (Laughter).
SIMON: How does Anthony Hopkins make this Lecter especially unnerving?
RAFTERY: When you think about, you know, his first scene, it's just him staring at Clarice Starling kind of head-on as she walks down to his cell. A lot of the movie is Anthony Hopkins' Hannibal Lecter looking into the camera. And the weird thing about "The Silence Of The Lambs" is it's a movie about connection between two people who can't connect with anyone else in the world. Anthony Hopkins is Hannibal Lecter. He's behind a cell. But Jodie Foster, who's the FBI trainee, you know, she doesn't really have a lot of people in her life either.
And I think what makes this movie so strong all these decades later, is that it is kind of a movie about a successful platonic relationship. I mean, the scene that really grabs you in this movie when you - after you've seen it five or six times, it's this scene toward the end...
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FOSTER: (As Clarice Starling) Tell me his name, Doctor.
HOPKINS: (As Hannibal Lecter) Clarice, your case file.
RAFTERY: ...Where Hannibal Lecter and Clarice Starling are exchanging a document between his prison cell, and their fingers briefly touch.
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HOPKINS: (As Hannibal Lecter) Goodbye, Clarice.
RAFTERY: And it's a close-up of it, and it is so unsettling, but at the same time, it's also very sincere. Like, these are two people who are longing for a connection. And I think, as strange as it is to say, I think Hannibal Lecter is, in that way, one of the more relatable on-screen serial killers we've ever had.
SIMON: Yeah.
RAFTERY: I mean, there but for the grace of God go I, I guess, in some ways. I mean, I'm not a cannibal. I'm not interested in cannibalism or murder. But who hasn't felt those kind of moments of wanting freedom and of wanting to connect with others?
SIMON: I'm glad to hear you're not a cannibal, but, you know...
RAFTERY: (Laughter) I feel like I should make that my go-to disclosure, I think, at all the - whenever I talk about Hannibal Lecter.
SIMON: Why do you think we, the public, can be so taken with Hannibal Lecter to the point of, I don't want to say cheering him on?
RAFTERY: (Laughter) They do. They do.
SIMON: All right. I just said it. Yeah.
RAFTERY: Are you kidding? Yeah. I think it's complicated, but I think, you know, thinking about this character for the last several years and why people still love him - you know, Freddy Krueger, Jason Voorhees, Michael Myers, all these kind of big-screen monsters of the '80s, those three guys scared me a lot when I was a kid. I never thought they were real-real, whereas I think Hannibal Lecter, as exaggerated as he is in some ways, especially in the later books, feels very real.
And like I said earlier, he feels relatable and also kind of aspirational, in a way. I mean, I'm not trying to be too glib, but if you had to be a serial killer, wouldn't you want to be the smartest, most respected, most quoted, most sought-out serial killer? The guy who everyone, from his fellow doctors to fellow serial killers, want to impress? That's a big part of these books, is people trying to impress Hannibal Lecter. He has a lot of stature, despite his terrible crimes. And, you know, there is something kind of admirable about his pursuit of knowledge and about his esteem he demands from others, clearly.
SIMON: Totally personal question.
RAFTERY: Sure.
SIMON: Have you ever actually had fava beans with a good Chianti?
RAFTERY: You know, I don't think I have, actually. And I'm - look, I'm a vegetarian. I eat a lot of beans. I don't think I've had fava beans and Chianti. I'm sure at some point, someone will serve it to me soon.
SIMON: Brian Raftery's new book, "Hannibal Lecter: A Life." Thank you so much for being with us.
RAFTERY: Thank you. I appreciate it. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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