ADRIAN MA, HOST:
Few film archetypes have been more adored or debated than the femme fatale - beautiful, seductive, dangerous and cunning, like Barbara Stanwyck in "Double Indemnity"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DOUBLE INDEMNITY")
BARBARA STANWYCK: (As Phyllis Dietrichson) We went into this together, and we're coming out at the end together. It's straight down the line for both of us. Remember?
MA: ...Ava Gardner in "The Killers"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE KILLERS")
AVA GARDNER: (As Kitty Collins) You touch me and you won't live till morning.
MA: ...Or Lana Turner in "The Postman Always Rings Twice."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE")
JOHN GARFIELD: (As Frank Chambers) He never did anything to me.
LANA TURNER: (As Cora Smith) But darling, can't you see how happy you and I would be together here without him?
MA: Over time, the femme fatale has evolved from those iconic depictions in the 1940s, but it hasn't gone away. And Women's History Month might seem like an odd time to get into this, to talk about an archetype that one might say has a nefarious reputation. But our guests today think it is actually the perfect time. And to dig into why, we have ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producer Marc Rivers.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Adrian.
MA: Hey, Marc. Marc produces our weekly movie segments, and we're also joined by NPR senior editor Barrie Hardymon.
BARRIE HARDYMON, BYLINE: Hi.
MA: Hey, Barrie. OK, Barrie, Marc, I am no film scholar, admittedly, but my impression of the femme fatale as, like, an archetype is - it's not very generous to women, right? They're generally just, like, women who use their sort of feminine charms to evil and conniving ends. Am I wrong about that?
RIVERS: Sounds fine to me.
HARDYMON: I was going to say...
RIVERS: Barrie, you want to take that?
HARDYMON: I mean, I'm no cinephile, but I am a lady. And I will tell you that certainly they are all those things, and they are also - you know, symbolize women's agency in a world that did not give them much. And I will say, I think that, in particular, you know, this is an archetype that was really popular in the '40s and '50s. But as time went on, you know, feminist film critique said, hey, this could be read actually like a fantasy of female competence in a place that otherwise they wouldn't have had that kind of power. So I'm - no, I'm for the femme fatale.
MA: Well, Marc, you are sort of resident cinephile around here. So can you give us a little more of the history of the femme fatale in movies?
RIVERS: Yeah, so as Barrie said, you know, this archetype would appear in a number of films that were popular around World War II that were dubbed film noir. And these are very cynical, fatalistic thrillers that seem to kind of represent a moral disorder in the nation where anybody, even those with a veneer of kind of being fine and upstanding, would lie, cheat, steal or even kill to get what they want. And in these movies...
HARDYMON: Not like today.
MA: (Laughter).
RIVERS: Nothing like today. In these movies, the person who seemed most eager to do all those things was the woman. Now...
HARDYMON: And she would often lead the man down the garden path.
RIVERS: She would often dupe a poor sap of a man to help her with this scheme.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "DOUBLE INDEMNITY")
FRED MACMURRAY: (As Walter Neff) Yes, I killed him. I killed him for money and for a woman. And I didn't get the money, and I didn't get the woman.
RIVERS: Now, the kind of common line around these - around this role is that the femme fatale kind of reflected an anxiety around, like, women entering the workplace around World War II. But I think that kind of lets the history of human civilization off the hook a little bit because this idea that women are duplicitous and seductive enchantresses that will lead men to their doom, that goes all the way back to Greek mythology, you know? It's like...
HARDYMON: Anybody read Genesis? Like...
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERS: It's actually in the Bible (ph), yeah.
HARDYMON: Yeah.
RIVERS: The femme fatale, you could look at them as sirens wearing strapless dresses and smoking cigarettes. And I always say, I think, more than the lying and the scheming, you know, Barbara Stanwyck in "Double Indemnity," you know, Gene Tierney in "Leave Her To Heaven," these roles were not just about just, you know, trying to dupe a man. It was more about breaking through the kind of social confines of the era, you know, and kind of having agency, and what am I going to do with this agency?
MA: OK, so I'm getting from both of you pro femmes fatale.
RIVERS: So pro.
MA: Let's talk favorites. Marc, why don't you keep going? What would be some of your favorite examples?
RIVERS: So one of my absolute favorites comes from 1946, and it's called "Gilda," starring Rita Hayworth.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "GILDA")
GEORGE MACREADY: (As Ballin Mundson) Gilda, are you decent?
RITA HAYWORTH: (As Gilda) Me? Sure, I'm decent.
RIVERS: Many other people might best know Gilda from "The Shawshank Redemption." The protagonist there has a poster of Rita Hayworth in his jail cell.
HARDYMON: It's the most famous Rita Hayworth image out there.
RIVERS: Absolutely, one of the iconic roles in movies. And Rita Hayworth in this film, she's not necessarily the protagonist. But the movie is not called "Johnny," which is the name of the protagonist. It's called "Gilda" because she is the center of gravity in this movie. The camera and the light seek her out. And what I love about Hayworth in this film is that you could tell she knows how to play off the camera. And she's kind of, like, caught between these other two men, this kind of hustler cat played by Glenn Ford and this shady casino owner played by George Macready. And she's kind of caught between them, but she plays both of them emotionally.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "GILDA")
GLENN FORD: (As Johnny Farrell) Doesn't it bother you at all that you're married?
HAYWORTH: (As Gilda) What I want to know is, does it bother you?
RIVERS: She just relishes it, and she - you just - you can't look away from her.
MA: Barrie, what about you?
HARDYMON: For me, you mentioned Gene Tierney in a film called "Leave Her To Heaven."
RIVERS: And this is a color noir interestingly enough, too. Yeah.
HARDYMON: Yes. And, God, does she look good in color? I mean, this is truly one of the most iconic faces in film.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "LEAVE HER TO HEAVEN")
GENE TIERNEY: (As Ellen Berent Harland) Sometimes the truth is wicked. You're afraid of the truth, aren't you, Ruth?
HARDYMON: She plays a woman - a sociopathic, obsessive wife who murders her husband's disabled brother, and she is beautiful. She is cruel. She is chic as heck.
RIVERS: Peace and love (ph).
MA: (Laughter).
HARDYMON: Truly, this is one of these ones where there's no bottom. You know what I mean? But she, again, is the center of the movie, and you kind of get why you could be led away. She meets this man on a train and leaves her fiance for him.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "LEAVE HER TO HEAVEN")
CORNEL WILDE: (As Richard Harland) As a matter of fact, I can't say you look like anyone I've ever met before.
TIERNEY: (As Ellen Berent Harland) Then why did you stare?
WILDE: (As Richard Harland) Do you really want to know?
TIERNEY: (As Ellen Berent Harland) If it's not too unflattering.
HARDYMON: I can't even remember who played them (inaudible).
RIVERS: I can't even picture him. I just see Tierney in her red lipstick.
HARDYMON: And I didn't even bother to look them up because - why?
RIVERS: (Laughter).
MA: Let's travel forward in time 'cause it sounds like...
RIVERS: Yeah.
MA: ...We're sort of in the Hollywood golden era right now. Barrie, can you talk about more recent depictions...
HARDYMON: Sure.
MA: ...Of femme fatales that you're a fan of?
HARDYMON: Well, I would say the first sort of modern film that I saw, where I was like, wow, you can - this is cool, is when I was in high school, a movie called "The Last Seduction" with Linda Fiorentino.
RIVERS: Oh. Yeah, should have brought up that one (ph).
HARDYMON: I know that Marc loved this tape.
RIVERS: (Laughter) Yeah.
HARDYMON: ...'Cause he's got taste. This is just an incredible film.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE LAST SEDUCTION")
LINDA FIORENTINO: (As Bridget Gregory) You have your own place?
PETER BERG: (As Mike Swale) Yes.
FIORENTINO: (As Bridget Gregory) Is it a sty?
BERG: (As Mike Swale) No, it's clean.
FIORENTINO: (As Bridget Gregory) Do you have indoor plumbing?
BERG: (As Mike Swale) Yes, I have indoor plumbing. I have electricity, and I have a name.
FIORENTINO: (As Bridget Gregory) No names. Meet me outside.
HARDYMON: Much like Gene Tierney, she's beautiful, cruel. She steals a lump of drug money from her husband, runs away, hides in a small town, and then convinces another poor dupe to, you know, be in on her schemes.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE LAST SEDUCTION")
BERG: (As Mike Swale) Wait a minute. You don't even seem bothered by what you've done.
FIORENTINO: (As Bridget Gregory) I did it for us, Mike. What bothers me is your attitude.
RIVERS: I mean, she's the hero and the villain of that movie, which was so great.
HARDYMON: Yes. Yes, and that - which is the thing that makes it so magnetic to watch.
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARDYMON: She's allowed to be a full person. She is - she likes sex. She likes money. She doesn't care about these men. And one of the things I really love about it is that while I appreciate that the sort of backlash to the original femme fatale was that you got to have a fuller character...
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARDYMON: ...And you maybe had motivations, she's just a psycho.
(LAUGHTER)
HARDYMON: And that's kind of awesome because guess what?
MA: She's in it for the thrill.
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARDYMON: Women, they can be psycho, too. This character is - there are still things to admire in that she is incredibly competent and practical and...
RIVERS: And always in control.
HARDYMON: Oh, 100%.
RIVERS: Owning every scene, owning every moment.
HARDYMON: And she is physically and intellectually incredibly agile.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE LAST SEDUCTION")
BILL PULLMAN: (As Clay Gregory) What made you do this?
FIORENTINO: (As Bridget Gregory) I don't know. You slapped me.
PULLMAN: (As Clay Gregory) Oh, that's just an excuse.
FIORENTINO: (As Bridget Gregory) Probably right, but I get to slap you back.
MA: You know, one thing I wonder - correct me if I'm wrong here, but are most of these characters generally written by men? And if that's the case, like, what do you make of that?
RIVERS: Yeah, you know, it's true whether it was one of the classics from the 1940s, or you think about the erotic thriller era. You know, people like Joe Eszterhas wrote a number of them...
HARDYMON: Brian De Palma.
RIVERS: ... Brian De Palma. These movies did reflect in a lot of ways the terror that men felt towards women with any kind of power.
HARDYMON: "Fatal Attraction."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "FATAL ATTRACTION")
GLENN CLOSE: (As Alex Forrest) I just want to be a part of your life.
MICHAEL DOUGLAS: (As Dan Gallagher) Oh, this is the way you do it, huh? Showing up at my apartment?
CLOSE: (As Alex Forrest) Well, what am I supposed to do? You won't answer my calls. You changed your number. I mean, I'm not going to be ignored, Dan.
RIVERS: The character in "Fatal Attraction" doesn't have any friends, you know, no history. She's just a woman.
HARDYMON: And at the end, she gets her comeuppance from the good girl.
RIVERS: Right.
HARDYMON: Yeah.
RIVERS: And there often would be a good girl to kind of like - to kind of compare towards the bad girl. But then, today, you know, you see what happens when women get to direct and write the movies. Take Rose Glass' 2024 film "Love Lies Bleeding," starring Kristen Stewart and Katy O'Brian, where it's two women that are the center of this thriller.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "LOVE LIES BLEEDING")
KATY O'BRIAN: (As Jackie) Afterwards, let's just keep driving.
KRISTEN STEWART: (As Lou) Where?
O'BRIAN: (As Jackie) California.
STEWART: (As Lou) I've never been anywhere but here.
RIVERS: Also Nia DaCosta's film, "Hedda" from last year, starring Tessa Thompson...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "HEDDA")
TOM BATEMAN: (As George Tesman) This isn't a game. Do you even care?
TESSA THOMPSON: (As Hedda Gabler) I care deeply, my love. I can't wait to see how it turns out.
RIVERS: ...Where you have women reclaiming the femme fatale archetype and giving these women real histories and complexities and also changing the kind of emotional priorities of the film.
HARDYMON: Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
RIVERS: You know, like, the perspective is different. The POV is different. Even the negative portrayals are fascinating.
HARDYMON: You know, when you have, you know, stories like "Gone Girl," written by a woman, and there's a kind of wink and a nod to it.
RIVERS: Totally.
HARDYMON: There's sort of a good cheer to the book, at least, where, you know, she's in conversation with this archetype...
RIVERS: Absolutely.
HARDYMON: ...In a way that kind of shows her own sense of humor about it.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "GONE GIRL")
ROSAMUND PIKE: (As Amy Dunne) Nick Dunne took my pride and my dignity and my hope and my money. He took and took from me until I no longer existed. That's murder. Let the punishment fit the crime.
RIVERS: And conversation also kind of saying, y'all didn't go far enough.
MA: (Laughter).
HARDYMON: Exactly.
RIVERS: Y'all weren't good enough.
HARDYMON: Yeah, yeah.
MA: This is making me think of actually a movie I really liked some years ago, "Jennifer's Body."
HARDYMON: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
RIVERS: Yeah.
MA: That was written by a woman, right? Diablo Cody.
HARDYMON: Yep. Diablo - yes.
RIVERS: Yes, yeah.
HARDYMON: That's right.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "JENNIFER'S BODY")
AMANDA SEYFRIED: (As Needy) You're killing people.
MEGAN FOX: (As Jennifer) No, I'm killing boys. Boys are just placeholders. They come and they go.
MA: Would that fall into the femme fatale category?
HARDYMON: Well...
RIVERS: Femme fatale as...
HARDYMON: Vampire - well, vampiric.
RIVERS: ...A cannibal or, yeah, vampiric. Yeah.
MA: Cannibal...
HARDYMON: Yeah, vampiric femme fatale is a thing.
MA: ...Demonic high school girl lures unsuspecting boys to their doom.
RIVERS: Hundred percent.
HARDYMON: Hundred percent.
MA: OK.
HARDYMON: Again, the sirens, the vampires, the - like, the supernatural witchiness...
RIVERS: Yep.
HARDYMON: ...Is very much a part of this as well. And that's - you know, that's how we got Veronica Lake, to some extent.
RIVERS: And God bless it.
HARDYMON: Mm-hmm.
MA: We've been talking with Barrie Hardymon and Marc Rivers, our own beautiful, seductive and dangerous combo here at ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
RIVERS: I'm just the poor sap here.
(LAUGHTER)
MA: Thanks for joining us, you two.
RIVERS: You're welcome.
HARDYMON: Thanks. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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