ROB SCHMITZ, HOST:
For four years now, Joanna Kakissis has been covering the war in Ukraine for NPR.
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JOANNA KAKISSIS, BYLINE: Well, the Ukrainians want to reclaim as much land as possible toward the eventual goal...
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KAKISSIS: We heard the buzzing of Russian launched attack drones all night, followed by the...
SCHMITZ: Throughout much of that time, the story led newscasts around the world. Recently, though, the world has been focused on another war, the one in the Middle East.
KAKISSIS: Ukrainians are very aware that the spotlight is no longer on them, that it's somewhere else.
SCHMITZ: That's Joanna again.
KAKISSIS: And that's bad for Ukraine because Ukraine needs attention so its allies can provide military aid and that people don't forget that people here in Ukraine are still suffering.
SCHMITZ: Ukrainians still need help, but in an effort to flip the script, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has taken to the road, selling his nation's drone industry as Ukraine's leaders seek to recast the country's image from a country that always seems to be in need to one that has something the rest of the world now needs.
KAKISSIS: While the rest of the world sees them as a weakling, they've actually developed into a bit of a powerhouse when it comes to defense tech.
SCHMITZ: For this week's Reporter's Notebook, I wanted to talk more with Joanna about the way Ukraine is changing at this particular moment and how her reporting on the country is, too. I started by asking what President Zelenskyy is like in his off-the-record meetings with journalists.
KAKISSIS: These very relaxed settings. Imagine, like, a big table.
SCHMITZ: OK.
KAKISSIS: And we all sit around this big table like we're graduate students and he's the professor.
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KAKISSIS: And he's about to give a lecture. But we - and we all have microphones, and we ask questions. You know, we raise our hands, just like (laughter) in a graduate school lecture, and ask a question, and we take notes. So yeah, these are very informal.
I even sat next to him once, and he - and I was surprised when he came and sat down next to me. And I kind of said, what are you doing here? And he's like, hello, I'm about to give this off-the-record discussion. I'm here to talk to you. So that's how informal it is. You can just end up sitting next to him, and it's like, no big deal. Sometimes he can get combative when he doesn't like our questions, but he always answers them.
SCHMITZ: And have his communications or his style of communication changed since this new war in Iran has started?
KAKISSIS: The big change that I've seen since the Iran war is that I think he wants to be more accessible. And one of the things that he does that I - I mean, this predated the Iran war, but I do think it's an interesting development - he also answers questions on WhatsApp. Like, we have a...
SCHMITZ: Really?
KAKISSIS: ...WhatsApp chat with - yes - with the president's office.
SCHMITZ: Wow.
KAKISSIS: And if he's traveling, he's like, hey, does anybody have any questions? And so we send him questions, and he sends us answers in the form of a voice memo.
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PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY: NPR (Non-English language spoken).
SCHMITZ: Perfect for radio.
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KAKISSIS: Yes, it's perfect. Yeah, it comes in very handy (laughter).
SCHMITZ: So Joanna, we've been talking a little bit about the war in Iran. I'd love to talk also about one of Ukraine's neighbors, Hungary, where I've been reporting. What have you learned about Zelenskyy in covering how he's approaching the Hungarian election, which has been a very important one.
KAKISSIS: Zelenskyy sees Orbán as an agent of the Kremlin. Viktor Orbán has repeatedly blocked aid for Ukraine, including most recently now with a, you know, 90...
SCHMITZ: Right.
KAKISSIS: ...Billion euro loan, $100 billion, that Ukraine desperately needs. If they don't get this money, they're going to run out of money entirely in June. And Zelenskyy is very angry about this, that Orbán is blocking this. He has - and Orbán has every right to do that - this as a member of the - as the leader of a European Union member state. But still, it's very frustrating for Zelenskyy.
So what I've seen from Zelenskyy in watching his actions towards Hungary is that, you know, he's made his hatred of Orbán very clear. He's even overstepped his bounds a couple of times, including, you know, making this veiled threat that - in which he would send the Ukrainian military after Orbán, and that did not go over well with the European Union. And the European Union does not criticize Zelenskyy, but they did this time.
SCHMITZ: Yeah, I remember that. I remember when that happened, and I remember thinking to myself, could this type of aggressive comment backfire?
KAKISSIS: You know - yeah.
SCHMITZ: Meaning that, could it help Orbán in - you know, win this election because he would then use it saying, oh, look, Ukraine's threatening us.
KAKISSIS: Yes, I mean, that's, I think, what the European Union was worried about, as well. I mean, some of the European Union leaders who see Orbán as a threat to the EU project - you know, they kind of don't want him to win, and they're like, oh, Zelenskyy said this, now he's just going to help him.
SCHMITZ: So, Joanna, earlier in this conversation, we talked a little bit about drones, and I want to return to that topic. You know, drones are a daily part of your life as a reporter on the ground in Ukraine. What is that like?
KAKISSIS: Well, you know, I've gotten very used to hearing Shahed drones flying over our house, over our neighborhood at night. They sound like mopeds, you know, like, very loud mopeds. And I remember once early on when I started to - when they started to fly really low over our neighborhood, I thought it was my neighbor mowing his lawn. And I ran out.
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KAKISSIS: I, like, literally ran out to the - you know, outside the house. And I was, like, you know, looking for Misha (ph), and I was going to ask Misha why he was mowing the lawn. But it was in the middle of the night, and there was - no one was mowing the lawn. It was a drone. And...
SCHMITZ: Wow.
KAKISSIS: I realized then that, wow, this - these are really close, and they're really loud. They're loud enough to wake me up.
SCHMITZ: Yeah.
KAKISSIS: And then I just got used to it, like, you know, so many other people here. And so I've gotten used to them, and I've seen them in the field. I mean, I was in Kramatorsk late last fall when - we actually had just passed this gas station, and not even, like, an hour later - we'd seen these journalists at this gas station. They were about to do a standup, and those journalists were killed by FPV drones. And so...
SCHMITZ: Oh, my gosh.
KAKISSIS: You know, that's how - it's a reality that you have to face wherever you go. So you learn to live with it. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, that you - that these become the new normal, but, you know, you live here, you have to go with that. You have to accept that.
SCHMITZ: The technology in this war is both terrifying and fascinating at the same time. And I'm just curious. Have you ever flown a drone or had a chance to do?
KAKISSIS: Well, that's funny that you ask because yes, I just did. And I'm not - I should say, I'm not - I've never played video games. I barely know how to use a console. So I am not the right person to be doing this. But I was - I've been reporting the story on interceptor drones, and I was with a company, and they said, would you like to try flying this? And I said, sure. And (laughter) - and then, you know, I picked up the console and made an attempt to fly the drone. It wasn't - I - spoiler alert, it was not successful. (Laughter) And it was pretty hard, I thought.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Moves like...
KAKISSIS: Left - it goes left and right?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Left and right, yeah.
KAKISSIS: And then this way is forward and backwards, left...
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Yeah.
KAKISSIS: ...And right. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Yeah.
KAKISSIS: And this is...
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: This stick, left and right. It's turning...
KAKISSIS: Turning, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: One place (ph), yeah.
KAKISSIS: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: This is gas.
KAKISSIS: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: To turn...
KAKISSIS: What if I ruin your drone, though? I'll feel bad if I ruin it.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I'll turn the stabilization on.
KAKISSIS: (Laughter).
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Try just to turn the drone off (ph).
KAKISSIS: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: And to land.
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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: More gas.
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KAKISSIS: I feel like I'm digging a hole out there.
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KAKISSIS: Oh, oh, oh.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Hold. Hold it, hold it.
KAKISSIS: Oh, sorry (laughter). I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Did I ruin the drone? Is it OK? Did I kill it?
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SCHMITZ: Wait a second. Joanna, did you just destroy that drone?
KAKISSIS: (Laughter) Well, he said he could fix it, so I'm hoping that it wasn't destroyed. But let's just say it wasn't much of a liftoff. I think NASA would not have been impressed with my rocket launch there. It, like, just went - (laughter) it went up, like, maybe a foot, and then it - you know, and then I managed to sink it back into the ground. So I'm not going to be flying any drones - interceptor drones anytime soon, but it was interesting to try (laughter).
SCHMITZ: Are you going to get an invoice from the Ukrainian government for that?
KAKISSIS: (Laughter) Let's hope not. (Laughter) I don't think my editors would like that (laughter).
SCHMITZ: That is NPR superstar reporter Joanna Kakissis joining us from Kyiv. Joanna, thank you so much.
KAKISSIS: You're welcome, Rob. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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