JUANA SUMMERS, HOST:
Remember when Miranda first started dating Steve in "Sex And The City"? Miranda's this successful lawyer. Steve's a bartender. Miranda's ambitious, and Steve likes to watch "Scooby-Doo." And Miranda tells Carrie they're having issues.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "SEX AND THE CITY")
SARAH JESSICA PARKER: (As Carrie Bradshaw) What is wrong with you guys?
CYNTHIA NIXON: (As Miranda Hobbes) I don't know. It's like he's a kid, and I end up nagging him all the time. I'm mean mommy, and believe me...
SUMMERS: And these days, in real life, it seems like there are a whole lot of Mirandas. If you are chronically online, like I am, you've probably seen tons of stories about heterosexual relationships where women are not only carrying the financial load but also everything else - the logistics of their relationships, keeping the house clean, taking charge in parenting. This has been a huge conversation in my friend group. And the question we keep asking ourselves is, what is going on here? To discuss, we brought in Hanna Horvath. She's a financial planner and personal finance journalist. And she recently wrote a piece on Substack. It's called "Women Are Making More Money. Why Are They Still Doing Everything Else?" Hanna Horvath joins us now. Welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
HANNA HORVATH: Thank you. Happy to be here.
SUMMERS: OK, so, Hanna, your article on Substack picks up where this recent article in The Cut leaves off, and that article is called "Call Her Mommy." And in it, Angelina Chapin writes about Gen Z women who are in these relationships they feel are lopsided in terms of both finances and the responsibilities of relationship, like planning dates and doing the laundry. And the question that many of these women seem to be asking themselves is, what are the men doing? When you read that article for the first time, what questions did it bring up for you?
HORVATH: Yeah, it had me thinking a lot about how the economic agreement that comes within relationships - which, you know, whether we realize it or not, you know, relationships are a little bit of an economic agreement - it's changed so drastically over the past couple decades, but those kind of conditioned gender roles when it comes to that unpaid labor, whether it be emotional labor or just domestic labor, just hasn't kept up. So, you know, women are kind of making these great strides and, you know, building financial independence, and when they're in these heterosexual relationships, you know, the split between making the money and then also kind of keeping track of the household and relationship, that hasn't caught up. And, you know, I think there's been a lot of online discourse about, you know, where are all the good men? And, you know, feeling like you're kind of in these relationships where it's like, well, what are you even bringing to the table? I feel like I'm kind of doing everything here.
SUMMERS: And you also took a look at the actual economic data behind these heterosexual relationships that we're discussing. What did you find?
HORVATH: Yeah, so I found that, you know, while women are still experiencing a gender pay gap, that we are getting more earning power in the workforce, and there are a rising percentage of households where women are the primary breadwinner. And yet, even in those households where women are the primary breadwinner, they are still doing the majority of the domestic labor, whether that be cleaning or cooking or, you know, being the primary caregiver. And again, it just goes to show that, you know, even though the economic, you know, model of a relationship is changing pretty quickly, that the embedded norms of what each person in the relationship should be doing in the household has more or less stayed the same.
SUMMERS: Based on your experience, how does this imbalance affect how people structure their partnerships or even how they plan their families?
HORVATH: Definitely. I mean, I think, you know, finances has become really top of mind for people when it comes to hitting these big milestones like getting married or having kids because it's become just so expensive to hit a lot of those milestones. And so I think people are thinking a lot more about finances when it comes to partnership. And I think, in addition to that, as women kind of gain more earning power in the workforce, they're thinking more critically about, you know, OK, I can reach this financial independence. I want a partner who is sharing that level of ambition or drive or what have you. And as I wrote in my newsletter, you know, ambition for women, I think, is a form of almost protection because, you know, we still struggle with an earnings gap. There's a motherhood penalty if we decide to have kids.
SUMMERS: Yeah.
HORVATH: So I think a lot of women are viewing ambition as a way for them to protect themselves economically. And, you know, I think that's why a lot of women are questioning relationships. Like, is this actually going to benefit me or am I just going to kind of get dragged backwards? Which a lot of the women in that Cut article, you could kind of see how it was negatively affecting their lives, both financially and probably emotionally.
SUMMERS: There's also this really sort of interesting flip side to this that you highlight, and you describe it as a broken bargain for men. Tell us more about that.
HORVATH: Yeah, so, you know, I talked about how men have been struggling in the past couple years economically. You know, there's a stat that, I think, 1 in 3 young men still live at home. And I think it's, you know, men are struggling in the current economic conditions in the same way women are. But I think in our society, a lot of men and masculinity is derived from this idea of being a provider. So not only are men, you know, suffering from the same economic outcomes women are, they're also having a little bit of an identity crisis.
SUMMERS: How would you handle one of these relationships where the woman is just, frankly, taking on way too many roles, possibly, like, all of the roles?
HORVATH: Yeah, well, I'll start by saying I'm not a relationship expert, but what I will say is we oftentimes use something like salary as a litmus test for, you know, if someone's successful or not. And a lot of times, that domestic labor gets completely swept under the rug and isn't valued as highly as, you know, earning money when it can be just as valuable, if not more valuable. So I think thinking in a relationship beyond just what each person is making is really important when evaluating what each person is bringing to the relationship. And I recommend anybody do this, whether in a relationship currently or you're kind of currently looking for a partner.
SUMMERS: Hanna Horvath is a financial planner and personal finance journalist, and her Substack is called Your Brain on Money. Hanna, thank you.
HORVATH: Thank you.
(SOUNDBITE OF OL' DIRTY BASTARD SONG, "GOT YOUR MONEY (FEAT. KELIS)") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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