DEBBIE ELLIOTT, HOST:
Some movie classics appear almost universally beloved, like "The Godfather"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GODFATHER")
AL PACINO: (As Michael) Don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again - ever.
ELLIOTT: ..."Casablanca"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "CASABLANCA")
INGRID BERGMAN: (As Ilsa Lund) But what about us?
HUMPHREY BOGART: (As Rick Blaine) We'll always have Paris.
ELLIOTT: ...Or "The Wizard Of Oz."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE WIZARD OF OZ")
JUDY GARLAND: (As Dorothy) There's no place like home.
ELLIOTT: But the fact is no film is loved by all. So for this week's Cineplexity, where talking about the movies allows us to talk about everything else, we wanted to talk about classics that for our two panelists just don't cut it. Joining me in the studio is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED producer Marc Rivers, who produces our Cineplexity segments, and NPR Music's Stephen Thompson, host of NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour. Welcome to you both.
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, y'all.
STEPHEN THOMPSON, BYLINE: It is great to be here. And I want to state up front, "The Godfather," "Casablanca," "Wizard Of Oz" - love them.
RIVERS: All great movies, yes (laughter).
ELLIOTT: Love them.
THOMPSON: Love them.
RIVERS: Stephen, defend all three (ph).
ELLIOTT: We have agreement now.
THOMPSON: In case anyone is listening and, like, they were prepping their long knives for having people come on and say that they don't like those movies...
RIVERS: Put the swords away 'cause they're all great movies.
THOMPSON: Those are great movies.
ELLIOTT: We're all - we don't hate those.
RIVERS: Yeah, yeah.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
ELLIOTT: But we are going to get to some hating in a minute. But before we do, what is the definition of a classic?
RIVERS: Yeah, you know, I think it's an interesting question because our culture is kind of so fractured right now, today. But, I mean, you know, a classic might be something like "Midnight Cowboy" who - you know, my girlfriend quotes that Dustin Hoffman line...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "MIDNIGHT COWBOY")
DUSTIN HOFFMAN: (As Ratso, yelling) I'm walking here.
(SOUNDBITE OF CAR HORN HONKING)
HOFFMAN: (As Ratso, yelling) I'm walking here.
RIVERS: ...Even though she's never heard of "Midnight Cowboy." You know, or a classic is also something like "Shrek," which almost everyone I know has seen that film and it's kind of influenced the next quarter century of American animation.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "SHREK")
MIKE MYERS: (As Shrek) Ogres are like onions.
EDDIE MURPHY: (As Donkey) They stink?
MYERS: (As Shrek) Yes. No.
MURPHY: (As Donkey) Oh, they make you cry.
MYERS: (As Shrek) No.
MURPHY: (As Donkey) Oh, you leave them out in the sun, they get all brown, start sprouting little white hairs.
MYERS: (As Shrek) No.
RIVERS: You know, I think often, time is the best decider of what...
THOMPSON: Sure.
RIVERS: ...Is a classic, right? But a classic today might be different for you than it is for me. I think a classic can often help tell the story of film or also help tell the story of the era with which it came out, as well. Or in some way, it's become a benchmark. It's kind of entered the pop cultural lexicon in some way, right?
THOMPSON: Yeah.
RIVERS: There are a lot of ways to look at it, and sometimes you just know.
THOMPSON: Yeah, there is the I-know-it-when-I-see-it, but I think, Marc, you're right to reference kind of cultural currency. And so many films that I think of as kind of classic touchstone works are ones that, like, if a young kid might not have seen them, but they might see parodies of them, references to them.
RIVERS: Right. Yeah.
THOMPSON: They might kind of reverse engineer access to these films through kind of constant referencing. And so sometimes that kind of classic quality, it's like, oh, multiple generations of people were not wrong.
RIVERS: Right. Like, it's still fresh.
ELLIOTT: So now that we kind of have laid the groundwork for what makes for a good classic, let's start the hate - Stephen.
THOMPSON: Hate is a strong word.
ELLIOTT: OK.
THOMPSON: I don't want to yuck anyone's yum if you love these movies. I don't judge people who don't like what I like.
ELLIOTT: OK.
THOMPSON: Like, I want to be...
RIVERS: Stephen's nicer than I am, though (laughter).
THOMPSON: Marc does. I want to be clear. Marc does, but I don't.
ELLIOTT: OK, OK.
THOMPSON: The first movie that sprung to my mind was "Forrest Gump"...
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "FORREST GUMP")
HANNA HALL: (As Young Jenny Curran) Run, Forrest. Run.
THOMPSON: ...From 1994, won best picture at the Oscars, Tom Hanks, you know, talk about cultural currency and, you know, films that are endlessly referenced and referenced and re-referenced.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "FORREST GUMP")
TOM HANKS: (As Forrest Gump) My mama always said life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get.
THOMPSON: But I remember sitting in the theater, kind of vibing with it for about the first hour and then just being like, is this thing still going?
RIVERS: (Laughter).
ELLIOTT: And where are we going next?
THOMPSON: (Laughter) Yeah. And, like, eventually, once he's like - I don't know, invents jogging, I don't even know what they were trying to do there.
RIVERS: (Laughter).
THOMPSON: But I think there are elements of that film, the kind of the treatment of Jenny as a character...
RIVERS: Oh, yeah.
THOMPSON: ...That has become kind of a big knock on that film. But for me, even at the time, I just found that movie sort of punishingly long and felt like it just wandered off course of what it was even trying to do.
ELLIOTT: So Marc, which classics are not really classics in your book?
RIVERS: Not that they aren't necessarily classics, but they're just classics that don't work for me. I could probably do away with a lot of John Hughes teen films...
ELLIOTT: Oh, interesting.
RIVERS: ...Just, you know, "Sixteen Candles," "Breakfast Club."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE BREAKFAST CLUB")
ALLY SHEEDY: (As Allison Reynolds) When you grow up, your heart dies.
JUDD NELSON: (As John Bender) Who cares?
RIVERS: But the one that I keep trying to get and just it never works for me is actually Ridley Scott's "Blade Runner."
(SOUNDBITE OF VANGELIS' "BLADE RUNNER MAIN TITLES")
THOMPSON: Oh, interesting.
RIVERS: Yeah, talk about, you know, one of the most influential films of the 20th - of the, you know, latter half of the 20th century, a world historic kind of landmark, whether it's the scoring, whether it's the production design, the cinematography, all of it. But it's just so boring to me. Like, you know, Harrison Ford plays this detective whose job it is to hunt and kill robots who passes humans called replicants.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BLADE RUNNER")
HARRISON FORD: (As Deckard) She's a replicant, isn't she?
JOE TURKEL: (As Tyrell) I'm impressed. How many questions does it usually take to spot them?
RIVERS: I feel like it is great at the world-building. But then when it comes to just straight-up narrative and character development and just getting from A, B to C is just negligent. And I feel like a lot of its biggest fans have kind of taken its ellipses as, like, proof of its artistry, when it's really, to me, just, like, screenwriting malpractice. It's like...
ELLIOTT: Oh, OK.
RIVERS: ...There just - there isn't really a lot going on here in this film. And honestly, you can't really trust any film that has multiple versions of it, multiple cuts 'cause, like...
THOMPSON: (Laughter) It does have multiple, very different cuts.
RIVERS: That kind of suggests to me that the director doesn't have a firm control of the material, like, doesn't really know what it is supposed to be.
THOMPSON: If I may speak in defense of "Blade Runner"...
RIVERS: Please do. Many have.
THOMPSON: (Laughter) One thing that I love about that movie is how idiosyncratic it is, how many strange choices are made, particularly by Rutger Hauer.
RIVERS: Oh. Oh, man.
THOMPSON: Big, strange acting choices.
RIVERS: Yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BLADE RUNNER")
RUTGER HAUER: (As Batty) I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
THOMPSON: A lot of what I'm looking for in movies, especially right now, is a sense that humans...
RIVERS: Idiosyncratic.
THOMPSON: ...Made this.
RIVERS: Yeah.
THOMPSON: I'm a big anti-AI guy. Like, I don't want some frictionless slop that looks like a composite sketch of everything else that already exists in the world. And what I like about "Blade Runner" is that it's clearly made by human beings making idiosyncratic choices. And some of that world-building I think is really, really beautiful.
RIVERS: I mean, it is a great film to just kind of put on...
THOMPSON: Yeah.
RIVERS: ...And just kind of just bask in the sights and sounds. But if you want me to lock in, that's when the Z's form.
THOMPSON: (Laughter).
ELLIOTT: So let's flip the coin now and think about one movie that you think should be a classic...
THOMPSON: Oh, boy.
ELLIOTT: ...Or at least in your household but probably isn't on the top 20 list somewhere on the interwebs (ph).
RIVERS: I think one recent one I think will endure is Paul Thomas Anderson's "One Battle After Another," recently won - it was our last best picture winner at the Oscars. Leonardo DiCaprio plays this kind of washed-up revolutionary who has to protect his daughter from a - this heinous dude from his past.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "ONE BATTLE AFTER ANOTHER")
LEONARDO DICAPRIO: (As Bob) Steve Lockjaw just attacked my home. I lost my daughter. This is Bob Ferguson. You understand? I don't remember any more of this. I don't remember any more of this code speak, all right?
RIVERS: And I think one thing about a good classic is, like - as I think I've mentioned before, is, like, it can speak to its moment or speak to its period.
THOMPSON: Yeah.
RIVERS: And 50 years from now, I will forever associate "One Battle After Another" with the detention centers and, you know, Trump unleashing ICE upon America's cities and white supremacists entering the mainstream and questions of just, what does it mean to resist, you know? Like, "One Battle After Another" allows discussion about all of those things. You know, it is a rare, kind of big-budget movie to kind of look around at what's happening in the world and say, you know, like, I see it too.
ELLIOTT: You know, in my family, we would consider "Raising Arizona" to be a classic.
RIVERS: Oh, yeah.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "RAISING ARIZONA")
RICHARD BLAKE: (As Parole Board Chairman) They got a name for people like you, H.I. That name is called recidivism. Not a pretty name, is it, H.I.?
NICOLAS CAGE: (As H.I. McDunnough) No, sir. That's one bonehead name, but that ain't me anymore.
THOMPSON: Excellent, excellent choice.
RIVERS: Yeah, yeah, great con film.
THOMPSON: I think that film is a classic.
RIVERS: Yeah.
THOMPSON: Yeah, you know, it's interesting, Debbie. You know, if I were submitting a ballot of, like, the 10 or 20 greatest films of all time, it would not include "Kung Fu Panda."
(LAUGHTER)
THOMPSON: But in my household, it is understood...
ELLIOTT: Mine either.
THOMPSON: ...That that film is canonical.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "KUNG FU PANDA")
IAN MCSHANE: (As Tai Lung) Him? He's a panda. You're a panda. What are you going to do, big guy - sit on me?
JACK BLACK: (As Po) Don't tempt me.
THOMPSON: Obviously, there are films that are made because they are great art, because they are speaking to our moment. And sometimes there are films that are just made because they're extraordinarily entertaining and quotable and memorable, and that - and I'm just happy every time I go back and revisit them.
ELLIOTT: And that's what going to the movies should be about.
RIVERS: Amen.
THOMPSON: Absolutely.
ELLIOTT: Well, thank you, gentlemen. That was NPR's Marc Rivers and Stephen Thompson. Great conversation.
THOMPSON: Thank you, Debbie.
RIVERS: My pleasure.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC) Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
