AILSA CHANG, HOST:
I have never dated a woman, but the times I've come close to considering it include the moments I'm watching comedian Kate Berlant perform on stage right here in LA, because one of her favorite topics is how straight relationships compare to queer relationships. And I have to say, Berlant is pretty convincing here.
(SOUNDBITE OF COMEDY SPECIAL, "PARMESAN")
KATE BERLANT: I'm fascinated watching straight couples at dinner. I'm like...
(LAUGHTER)
BERLANT: So often, they have nothing to say to each other. I'm watching them trying to decipher the relationship. I'm like, cousins...
(LAUGHTER)
BERLANT: ...Coworkers. Oh, it's like a lawyer-client dynamic?
CHANG: That is from Berlant's new HBO comedy special "Parmesan." It's 1 hour of Berlant's signature zigging and zagging from topic to topic, almost as if she's thinking of her material right then and there. She talks about phone addiction, social media, her sexuality, and how being a funny woman affects her sex appeal, which I had a lot of questions about.
You talk a lot about your sexuality in this special, and you're a woman who - let me make sure I'm getting this right. You're a woman who used to date...
BERLANT: Careful, careful, careful.
CHANG: Careful, here we go.
BERLANT: Everyone's listening.
CHANG: Choose my words...
BERLANT: Get it right.
CHANG: OK, so yeah. You're a woman who used to date only men in the past, is that correct?
BERLANT: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
CHANG: OK. And you say in the special how men - they hate funny women.
BERLANT: (Laughter).
CHANG: That, quote, "being funny repels men." That's your words. Why do you...
BERLANT: Yeah.
CHANG: ...Think that's the case?
BERLANT: OK, so I know those are my words. But I...
CHANG: Careful.
BERLANT: I do not think - of course I do not think that men hate funny women, but I feel that, and I have felt this since I was very young. I mean, I started doing stand-up when I was 17 years old. And I sort of talk about this in the special a bit, but part of me really thought that doing stand-up was going to get me a boyfriend. Or like, well, this is going to be great. They're going to be just...
CHANG: Because in your mind, being funny means being sexy, or you thought it would.
BERLANT: (Laughter) Yeah, or I just thought, well, this is appealing. Like, I'm going to - and then doing stand-up confirmed the sneaking suspicion I already had, which is, like, oh, this actually sort of complicates my relationship to men potentially, or this complicates my femininity or something.
CHANG: Why? Get into that. That's so interesting to me. Why is being funny...
BERLANT: Yeah.
CHANG: ...In any way antagonistic to being feminine?
BERLANT: Yeah, it's really sort of mysterious. It's interesting. And, like, again, I want to be clear - of course there are men who love funny women. I've - you know, I've been with them. They're - you know, we love them. But there is this, like, strange rupture that happens and that I have sort of, like, felt happen. And yes, I mean, I historically was always with men. That changed.
And then I also found myself in a position where, you know, we've seen, like, this sort of idea of, like, queerbaiting or, like, being queer for clout. And it was kind of funny to, like, arrive on the scene where that was just - it was too late. Like, just being like, well, there's no, like, clout really to be gained here. And it almost feels like, at this point, people are exhausted. It's like, we don't care. It's like, oh, you're bisexual. Like, you know, people are asleep.
CHANG: Wait, but let me ask you, when you started dating women or nonbinary individuals, did you feel like they were more receptive to your funniness?
BERLANT: Yes.
CHANG: Oh, interesting. You're hesitating.
BERLANT: Or no, you know what it is?
CHANG: What?
BERLANT: I think one could argue that there's something about being onstage, doing stand-up, which is, you know, historically, like, a very masculinized form - I was doing that in this way that even though - sure, I was like, I want a boyfriend, I want love or something - I was actually resisting the need to appeal to men, perhaps.
CHANG: In your performance, you mean?
BERLANT: Yes. And these things really change. Like, when I started doing stand-up, I had women, well-meaning women tell me, like, you should not wear a skirt onstage. You should not wear lipstick onstage.
CHANG: Why?
BERLANT: Because - and they meant that actually as a compliment, almost. Like, you're funny. Like, you don't have to do that.
CHANG: Oh, interesting.
BERLANT: And I remember just - I couldn't fathom that. And it's like, this is how I like to dress. And I have very romantic feelings about being onstage and being a performer. I like to dress up for it. And so I would receive feedback like that, and - which was really fascinating and confusing to me. And I think this all ultimately comes back to being 14 or 15 years old, and one of these, like, popular boys laughing with me and saying, you know, you should be careful. Guys don't like funny girls 'cause it reminds them too much of other guys.
CHANG: Wow. As if being funny is just a guy thing.
BERLANT: Yeah.
CHANG: That's guy territory.
BERLANT: And what he's saying is, like, totally valid and interesting and, I think, does speak to something that's very real.
CHANG: I want to confess, I am one of those women who you think are annoying, as you say in your special, because I am always that woman saying, I wish I could be gay, but I can't. I'm just sexually attracted...
BERLANT: You can.
CHANG: ...To men.
BERLANT: No, no, no. No, by the way, me too...
CHANG: 'Cause I do feel like you. I understand women so much more than I understand men. I click with them so much better. So...
BERLANT: Yeah.
CHANG: Maybe you need to talk me into this, all right?
BERLANT: Well, would it scare you if I told you, I'm attracted to men, too?
CHANG: (Laughter) It doesn't scare me.
BERLANT: I mean, that's what's kind of funny. I think that I didn't have this narrative. Like, my life has never been defined by this narrative. It wasn't like I had a secret, I was hiding, there was a part of myself I was denying. I wasn't going through my life, being like, oh, no, I'm gay, but no one can know. Like, that was just never what it was.
CHANG: Yeah.
BERLANT: But then as a result of that, kind of, I became open to this much more complicated, inherently mysterious reality of, like, the self and sexuality and that we kind of are constantly in flux. And...
CHANG: Yeah.
BERLANT: I don't know. You might have just not met the right person, you know?
CHANG: (Laughter).
BERLANT: I mean, that's kind of how I think it...
CHANG: Right.
BERLANT: ...It goes. I think...
CHANG: Yeah.
BERLANT: Yeah.
CHANG: I believe that.
BERLANT: No easy answers. I don't know.
CHANG: There are no easy answers, but you've gotten me to think, Kate. OK, well, you have had now, as you say, a couple stand-up comedy specials. What do you want to do more of going forward at this point? - because I know you've done some acting, as well. Is acting where you want to grow?
BERLANT: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my stand-up has always felt sort of like acting to me in a certain regard, and I think my comedy is sort of dramatic in this way. So I mean, when I was, you know, a kid, I wanted to be an actress. And then I - that kind of morphed into wanting to do comedy. But I - yeah, I mean, please list me as actress, actress comedian, you know?
CHANG: (Laughter).
BERLANT: I got to get work from this. Hello? I know you're listening.
CHANG: (Laughter).
BERLANT: So yeah, I love acting. I would die to be in films, television. Sure.
CHANG: Actress Kate Berlant's new comedy special is called "Parmesan." It's streaming now on HBO. Thank you so much, actress Kate (laughter).
BERLANT: Oh, thank you for seeing me. And we're going get you out to the right bars, hon.
CHANG: (Laughter) I love it. All right, you're on. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
