On Thursday, March 14, the Clinton Presidential Center presented a conversation between Dr. Colleen Shogan, Archivist of the United States and Former Secretary of State, Hillary Rodham Clinton.
Shogan leads the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) which preserves some of the nation’s most historic documents such as the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. The talk was held in honor of Women’s History Month.
Clinton began by acknowledging Shogan as the first woman to serve as Archivist of the United States. When asked why she thought it was important for women to be in the rooms where big decisions happen, Shogan said the key reason was “agenda setting.”
“When you [Hillary Clinton] were on the Senate Committee on Armed Services, there were three women including you,” Shogan said. “Now there are eight women on that committee. Those women are taking part in setting the agenda of what that committee debates and legislates.”
Clinton discussed the difficulty of maintaining a coherent version of history through the ages. She said this difficulty is compounded without documentation, a malady she believes plagues women’s history, Black history, and Native American history. Clinton asked Shogan how the National Archives can assist someone wanting to write a book or paper, or just learn more about themself.
“You can engage with us online or you can do a search in person, like here at the Clinton Library. You can make an appointment and when you show up, an archivist will have boxes [of documents] ready for you,” Shogan said. “I want to make the institution as user friendly as possible. We are emphasizing access, and that is through those two mechanisms - either in-person personal experiences or online digital access.”
Clinton prefaced the next section as being more focused on Women’s History Month, before segueing into a plug for a Broadway musical she’s financing.
“Come to New York and see it,” Clinton said. “It’s sort of the women’s version of 'Hamilton.'”
Shogan answered the question “what are some of your favorite stories about these remarkable, resilient women [suffragettes]?” with a thoughtful monologue about Alice Paul, Lucy Burns, Carrie Catt, and the tenacity of the women who shaped the suffrage movement. Shogan closed her statement with the acknowledgement that, through our current historical lens, the 19th Amendment was more about race than it was about women.
“You see that through Paul, through not letting African American women march in the parade,” Shogan said. “Then Ida B. Wells and Mary Church Terrell insisting they march in the parade and that tension. So, at the end, it’s really not about women. At the end, when the amendment is being ratified it’s really all about race.”
Clinton didn’t miss the opportunity to plug her musical one more time.
“What you just described is what this musical is about,” Clinton said. “I think it’s a great lesson for people interested in change in politics and history.”
Clinton went on to praise Ida B. Wells for her part in making the 19th Amendment a victory for all women. The conversation then turned to a discussion regarding the lack of civic education and involvement in America today. Clinton asked Shogan to relate, from an archivist’s perspective, what could be done to bridge the growing gap in Americans’ understanding of government and U.S. history.
Quoting Miguel Cardona, Secretary of Education, Shogan said she believes America needs a civics renaissance.
“We had a renaissance in this country 10 or 15 years ago for STEM education and it worked. Kids got interested in those subjects and test scores went up. We need that right now for civics and American history,” Shogan said. “If we don’t teach them, how can we expect them to understand their role?”
Shogan says that part of the “STEM renaissance” involved integrating math into all subjects, showcasing its universal applicability. She believes the same thing needs to happen now with citizenship, and she thinks technology is a key component of that.
“Gone are the days where you open up a civics textbook, read a chapter, and learn about the three branches of government,” Shogan said. “It’s more helpful to provide teachers with engaging online resources. Resources they can then push to kids that will help illuminate the classroom.”
Shogan concluded her answer to the question with a call to action.
“We need some curriculum or basis for teaching our kids how to talk to each other in a civil way,” Shogan said. “I don’t think we should be running away from difficult subjects in the classroom. We cannot discourage dissent or disagreements. We need to teach kids how to disagree in a civil, productive manner.”
Clinton began her next question by explaining that Shogan is different from the archivists that preceded her in more than just her gender.
“You weren’t trained as an archivist. You’re a political scientist,” Clinton said. “How do your past experiences influence how you think about this job? What are your top priorities for the National Archives going forward?”
Shogan said that, in her career as a political scientist, she made use of the National Archives for writing scholarly papers. As a former user, her top focus is access. She went on to say that her experiences on Capitol Hill and in the Library of Congress helped her understand the role that policy plays in the National Archives’ access to documents.
“A lot of what I do in Washington D.C. is making sure the needs of the National Archives are being met by our policymakers and that I’m making those effective arguments [to obtain access to documentation],” Shogan said. “I’m a political scientist that studies history. The difference between a historian and a political scientist is that historians tend to focus on a specific era, a specific president or actor. Political scientists have more of a bird’s eye view [of the whole of history].”
Shogan then insinuated that history changes based on our current perception of it.
“As history evolves and changes, that causes us to interpret other events differently,” Shogan said.
Clinton agreed and acknowledged the power of documentation.
“If you don’t look at all of it, you’ll miss lessons from it,” Clinton said. “Part of the challenge today is to make sure that people are willing to get outside their comfort zone to look at what we can prove about history. Not only to understand it, but so that we can work to make the future better.”
Clinton asked Shogan to explain what she thought was important about looking at history through this changing lens.
“There’s a lot of reasons why we want to tell a more inclusive history,” Shogan said. “Some of the reasons are for representation, to get people excited about history. But mostly it’s because that’s accurate history. If you leave out variables to a model, the model falls apart.”
Shogan went on to use her suffrage story as an example. She said that if you leave race out of the history of the 19th Amendment, you’re telling the wrong story.
“We want to be inclusive because we want people in the National Archives, in our research rooms, using our website. I want everyone to feel included. But we also want to tell the right narrative.”
The scripted conversation concluded there. Clinton and Shogan then addressed questions posed by members of the audience.
March is Women’s History Month. You can view the conversation in its entirety here.
