STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
President Trump's budget proposal for next year includes deep cuts to some federal agencies, paired with more spending for defense and homeland security. What is not included is any evidence of the $165 billion in savings that is claimed by DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency. NPR's Stephen Fowler has been tracking the work of that so-called department and joins us now. Stephen, good morning.
STEPHEN FOWLER, BYLINE: Good morning.
INSKEEP: OK, so you go to the DOGE website. They say, we're super transparent and we've saved $165 billion this year in federal spending, which is roughly the same amount of savings that the president claims for next year. But is there a connection?
FOWLER: Well, on paper, yes. DOGE's top-line savings claims are roughly the same as the $163 billion in nondefense spending cuts Trump would like Congress to make in next year's budget. But under the hood, Steve, these two are very different. DOGE's numbers are not grounded in reality. Our reporting has consistently found the group using misleading math and error-filled tracking of its so-called receipts, and there's little transparency for how they reached that grand total. De facto DOGE boss Elon Musk has also been constantly revising down the amount of money he says DOGE could cut, from $2 trillion to $1 trillion to now about $150 billion to $160 billion.
INSKEEP: OK. Is that smaller amount of savings reflected in the budget that the president is sending Congress?
FOWLER: While Musk's claims have been overstated and revised downward, Trump's proposal to slash spending from some federal agencies would actually be a drastic increase in cuts from any previous budgets.
INSKEEP: OK.
FOWLER: DOGE has focused on things that have been such a small part of federal spending, like canceling contracts and terminating leases, pushing agencies to fire workers. But to get to $163 billion in cuts, the president includes massive eliminations in programs and agencies, like nearly $18 billion taken from the National Institutes of Health and $15 billion in canceled Infrastructure Act funds within the Department of Energy. The president's plan shows the staggering changes that would have to happen to remove that much spending. Also, Steve, because he wants to reallocate that to defense and homeland security spending, there wouldn't actually be much of a decrease in discretionary spending, even with DOGE.
INSKEEP: So you're telling me that a lot of the DOGE savings are illusions. But there certainly are agencies that have been fed into the wood chipper, as Elon Musk said at one - some point. Things have - there've been some dramatic headlines. Do you see any of that in the budget proposal?
FOWLER: Well, the so-called skinny budget just outlines some of the major top lines that the president wants and doesn't necessarily reflect some of the major DOGE-led changes, like the reductions in force happening across the federal government. But some of the more high-profile actions, like the effective dismantling of USAID and drastic curtailing of the Education Department, are included in this proposal. That said, this budget document shows that DOGE is more of an overarching idea and a concept, rather than a vehicle for specific money-saving line items in the federal budget.
INSKEEP: OK. So who is making the more specific and more substantive changes, then?
FOWLER: Well, Trump's budget director, Russell Vought. Many of these major discretionary funding changes are similar to suggestions Vought made in a 2023 budget proposal at his think tank, Center for Renewing America. Things like targeting the National Science Foundation, the FBI, even shutting down USAID, were on the radar long before Musk and DOGE started dominating the headlines and the spotlight.
INSKEEP: NPR's Stephen Fowler is part of a team of reporters across NPR's newsroom covering government restructuring and the impact of DOGE. Stephen, thanks so much.
FOWLER: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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